Mac Moyer ([info]macmoyer) wrote,
@ 2008-07-22 09:56:00
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What does Indie Press Revolution bring to the table?

EDIT: I've received some very helpful responses from folks who work at IPR in the comments. Some points:

  • Publishers set prices at IPR, and IPR takes a 15% cut, which is smaller than a typical bookstore model.
  • I've personally had very good experiences buying directly from indie RPG publishers, but that's not always the case. IPR is providing professional customer service so you don't have to take a risk working directly with the guy who wrote a beautiful little RPG, but can't seem to offer customer service worth a damn. They're out there.
  • IPR's slightly-higher-than-usual S&H fees reflect more expensive packaging to better protect their books. I can vouch for this first-hand: they do use better packaging, and it does work.
  • [info]drivingblind points out ways to keep S&H-cost-per-book lower... see the comments for details.
  • Even folks who work at IPR aren't 100% pleased with the e-commerce software they're using.

The answers to my core question -- what does IPR do for me? -- has a lot of answers, and many of them are publisher-oriented. But the fact that I got so many thoughtful, rational responses from folks who work at IPR indirectly answers the question better than anything. It's clear these guys care about their business and want to serve consumers. They're making a quality effort in a challenging sector of a tough industry, and that deserves some support.

I'm going to leave the post below as originally written, but be advised that my mind has changed.

In my continuing fascination with indie RPGs, I've noted that in the last year or so most indie publishers are moving to Indie Press Revolution to handle their mail-order sales. I don't know a lot about their operating model or the economics of their unique product range, but I do know that as a consumer I don't care for a lot of things I'm seeing at IPR.

First, their prices aren't good. Now, these are indie RPGs, and I accept that I'm paying a premium for buying from small presses. But it seems to me (my memory may be faulty) that I paid less than $22 for my copy of "Dogs in the Vineyard" when I bought it directly from the publisher's web site (which isn't an option anymore, now that the publisher only sells it online through IPR). And it seems to me that IPR is a middleman taking a cut of the money I'm paying... but what am I, as the consumer, getting for my extra dough?

Second, their shipping fees are awful. Perhaps I'm too coddled by Amazon's free shipping deals, but I'll point out that independent sellers through Amazon charge only $3.99 for shipping a single book. IPR charges $5.79 for shipping a copy of "Dogs in the Vineyard," and even more for bigger books. Now, "Dogs" is a great game, but it's a tiny little book. Why so much for shipping? It's only a couple of bucks, but on top of their already high product prices it gets amplified. As a fan of indie RPGs, it's hard for me to feel good about selling my friends on a copy of "Dogs in the Vineyard" when I know it will cost them nearly $28 for a 160-page, digest-sized book. Worse yet, I already own and love "Dogs," but I'm reluctant to buy any games I'm less familiar with from IPR, because I don't feel comfortable with the value I'd be getting.

Finally, the web site is hard to use. It's hard to find stuff, even with the search function when you know exactly what you're looking for. Do a search for "spirit of the century." The game "Spirit of the Century" is the ninth entry on the page! WTF?

Making this worse is IPR's habit of posting a full entry for each available format for a product. There's an entry for the print edition, an entry for the PDF edition, and an entry for an option that includes both. All for the same book. It makes much more sense to me to put up just one entry per product, and show a column with the available buying formats and corresponding prices. It sure would be easier to browse the results of my search if there weren't three nearly identical entries for every project, producing a list so unnecessarily long that it extended over three pages.

I know IPR is scraping out a niche for itself in a hard-to-sell area of an industry that isn't exactly the place to go for profitability to begin with. And they must be doing something for publishers, or so many indie publishers wouldn't be using them. But, as a consumer, I'm not seeing the benefit of using IPR. I never like to be a complainer, especially about a small-fry operation that's serving the gaming community, but IPR needs to do a better job of telling me why I should support them. So far I avoid it as much as I can, but if they continue to be the main outlet for small RPG presses it's going to be hard to follow indie RPGs without them.




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[info]ptevis
2008-07-22 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Disclaimer: I do some work for IPR, but I have no specific inside knowledge of the issues you're raising.

First, IPR takes a 15% cut, but I'm not sure that's the cause of the across-the-board price creep in indie games. They've been moving up for a while. I'm not sure about the specific case of Dogs, but I don't there was a price bump when it moved to IPR. (I also have an early edition copy, and I thought I paid $22.)

Second, shipping rates are going up everywhere but Amazon; that's what the rising price of gas is doing. I'm actually curious to see what Amazon's going to do about that.

Third, I absolutely agree: the search function is terrible.

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[info]macmoyer
2008-07-22 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Paul, what would you say IPR contributes to the indie RPG community? How is it better (for me as a consumer or for the game publisher) for IPR to handle the sales rather than for me to purchase directly from a small indie publisher's website? It's gotta be doing some good for somebody to justify getting 15%.

I've noticed in the last year that Amazon is using DHL pretty exclusively... even when when a shipment comes from USPS, DHL's logo is on the box. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I'd bet they have some kind of exclusive, high-volume contract with DHL that lowers their cost per shipment. I googled it, but I don't see any official announcement of a strategic partnership, mostly just consumer comments.

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[info]ptevis
2008-07-22 07:43 pm UTC (link)
In some cases, I think IPR's value is that it makes the game available at all. As a game designer, I want to design games. Having a fulfillment house like IPR makes it possible for me to spend more time on the parts of the hobby I enjoy and less on the "dealing with physical product" part of it. I suspect that if something like IPR (or Lulu, which has the same issues from the customer end) didn't exist, I wouldn't be publishing A Penny For My Thoughts.

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[info]pjack
2008-07-23 07:56 am UTC (link)
I think that [info]ptevis has hit it spot-on.

Also, IPR makes it easier to sell games to retailers. Few game stores take the time to hunt down interesting games to order from dozens of individual web sites. It's much easier for stores to order from a single fulfillment house like IPR.

You're right, though. Price-wise, IPR doesn't do much for the individual consumer. The last time I ordered from IPR was during a "free shipping" promotion. It's not worth it for me, otherwise. And yeah, the web site isn't great, either. (Although personally, I don't have a problem with PDF, print, and combo packages being listed seperately.)

I can think of two minor ways IPR benefits consumers. For one, Brennan only stocks games that meet his personal criteria for fun and quality. For me, that's a perk. I don't feel like I have to dig through low-quality games to find the gems. Browsing the site is like browsing a friend's game library.

The other perk is the Voice of the Revolution podcast. I love hearing good "actual play" reports, and the author interviews are usually pretty interesting. Brennan puts one out every month. Oh yeah, and whats-his-name is in them, too. (Raul Crevice, I think. Or maybe Saul Pelvis? I forget.)

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[info]bar_sinister
2008-07-22 09:45 pm UTC (link)
Hey. As one of the owners of IPR, I can address a couple of the questions.

Prices for books are set by the individual publishers. IPR adds no extra charges beyond any shipping costs that may be charged. We don't mark up prices on any of the books, in other words.

For shipping, we put a lot of packaging around the product because we had been getting a lot of complaints about damaged books. This does increase the cost. I wish I could charge what Amazon does, I'm sure they get some excellent deals on shipping materials because they are buying so much of it.

All in all, I appreciate your speaking up. The search could use some work (I have the same problems as everyone else), and it may make sense to consolidate some of our product listings so we don't have multiple hits for the same item in different formats. Thanks!

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[info]macmoyer
2008-07-23 07:33 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the response! All of the thoughtful, rational replies I've received from IPR have definitely garnered good will from me. I feel a lot better about supporting IPR, seeing so much evidence that you guys really care about the business and its role in the community. You've one over one Internet loudmouth here.

I feel like I have a better idea now of what IPR is about, and lots of respect for the folks responsible, but I still would love to see the website improve. And I hope you're hearing that some indie RPG fans would buy more product if the prices were a little lower. I get that you're not setting prices, but maybe you can spread the word to the folks who do....

I really just wish I could afford to buy all the indie RPGs in the universe!

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[info]bar_sinister
2008-07-23 09:15 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad to hear this. We love this hobby, and we love indie games, that's why we do what we do. I'm glad you posted this in an open format to give us an opportunity to answer your concerns. It's better for us to hear what the problems are, that way we can work on them.

Thanks again!

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[info]drivingblind
2008-07-23 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Hi. I work the customer service desk at IPR.

"I don't know a lot about their operating model or the economics of their unique product range, but I do know that as a consumer I don't care for a lot of things I'm seeing at IPR."

IPR takes a minimum-necessary percentage of any sale made (15% of the sales price), passing on few other operating costs to the publisher. Publishers own their products -- IPR owns almost nothing of what's listed in the catalog (it's a consignment arrangement). This has impact on a few of my other responses below.

"First, their prices aren't good. Now, these are indie RPGs, and I accept that I'm paying a premium for buying from small presses. But it seems to me (my memory may be faulty) that I paid less than $22 for my copy of "Dogs in the Vineyard" when I bought it directly from the publisher's web site (which isn't an option anymore, now that the publisher only sells it online through IPR)."

Publishers set the prices we sell their products at, not IPR. If you're getting lower pricing direct from the publisher, that's because the publisher has chosen to make his product more expensive when selling it on IPR. That's not our decision and, honestly, not our preference. We'd rather see a fair and consistent price across the board, but some publishers (based on the assertion you're making) are obviously not interested in giving us that option.

"And it seems to me that IPR is a middleman taking a cut of the money I'm paying... but what am I, as the consumer, getting for my extra dough?"

You're getting a consolidated site where you can buy multiple products from many different publishers and get them all sent to you in a single shipment (which is the big way to get those shipping costs down -- see below).

This also means we're finding the high quality small press games out there and making it possible for you to be aware of them. That may seem like it's more a publisher benefit, and sure, that's true also, but as a consumer I see the value in it for me as well. There's a lot I would never have heard of if it didn't show up at IPR.

You're also getting, in a number of cases, a higher level of responsive customer service and timeliness on the shipping. I've heard repeated stories of folks buying stuff from publishers and it taking weeks to get sent. At IPR we do our best to minimize such circumstances. In this regard, we're a layer of acting more like a real business added on top of the more-variable "guy in a basement" operation, smoothing out the wrinkles and bumps.

[More to come in my next comment]

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[info]macmoyer
2008-07-23 05:44 pm UTC (link)
"You're also getting, in a number of cases, a higher level of responsive customer service and timeliness on the shipping. I've heard repeated stories of folks buying stuff from publishers and it taking weeks to get sent."

An excellent point. I've been lucky enough to have only good experiences buying direct from small publishers, but I've heard at least one horror story....

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[info]drivingblind
2008-07-23 03:11 pm UTC (link)
"Second, their shipping fees are awful. Perhaps I'm too coddled by Amazon's free shipping deals, but I'll point out that independent sellers through Amazon charge only $3.99 for shipping a single book. IPR charges $5.79 for shipping a copy of "Dogs in the Vineyard," and even more for bigger books. Now, "Dogs" is a great game, but it's a tiny little book. Why so much for shipping?"

Several things to note here.

- You're comparing IPR to Amazon. This is like comparing your local ma & pop corner grocery to WAL-MART. Adjust expectations accordingly, including the usual exhortations about supporting a local community instead of a mega-mart.

- Gas prices have been kicking shipping costs in the balls. The reason Amazon can keep its prices down is that it's usually paying the publishers something like 40% of the cover price, so it has a LOT of margin to play with. IPR, as noted, takes only 15% of the sale value, so that leaves the publisher with 85% instead of 40%.

- You're looking at $5.79 on shipping for Dogs, which means you're probably looking at the Media Mail option for shipping stuff to you. That has a larger markup on it because we have to use more packaging material and buy some additional options on the shipment in order to compensate for the degree to which the post office appears to want to kick the crap out of any package sent via Media Mail. Media Mail should scale nicely, though, with multiple products, with a larger gap developing between it and the more expensive options the more package weight there is.

- Which touches on the fact that our shipping costs are more optimized for multi-item orders than single-item orders. You're looking at the least efficient purchase, here.

- One of the ways to get those shipping costs down is to take advantage of our "$5 off shipping for every $50 of product on your order" discount.

- All shipping discounts -- the past free shipping incentive we had, and the current $5/$50 one -- are costs that get passed on to the publishers on the order. We had to switch over to the $5/$50 one because the gas-induced rising shipping costs were absolutely killing our small-guy members. With $5/$50, we're producing a more predictable, stronger-incentive-to-purchase-multiple-items shipping cost subsidization effect for our publishers, making it more likely they'll stick around and make more games for you to enjoy.

[More to come in my next comment]

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[info]macmoyer
2008-07-23 05:51 pm UTC (link)
"You're comparing IPR to Amazon."

Not so. I admit that Amazon's great shipping deals have spoiled me and made me more sensitive to "normal" S&H fees, but I'm really comparing IPR to independent retailers who ship through Amazon, most of whom are at least as small as IPR. Those sellers get $3.99 for S&H, even on hefty books.

I think the IPR-uses-better-packaging explanation is solid -- I've seen it first-hand -- and the other suggestions are good. I wasn't aware of the shipping discount for orders over $50... must have overlooked that on the site, and it sure didn't jump out at me when I had more than $50 of books in my shopping cart. So thanks for the pointers!

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[info]drivingblind
2008-07-23 03:21 pm UTC (link)
"Finally, the web site is hard to use. It's hard to find stuff, even with the search function when you know exactly what you're looking for. Do a search for "spirit of the century." The game "Spirit of the Century" is the ninth entry on the page! WTF?"

That's true. I'd like to do more to improve the site, but the amount of time I can spend on hacking the code pretty much vanishes in the face of the amount of time I spend working on customer service. C'est la vie.

The basic search looks at everything, and defaults to sorting by alphabet. Thus, you're getting all the games which have text in their descriptions mentioning Spirit of the Century too: probably me running my yap and saying something about those games.

You can also click on the headers at the top of that search and get it to sort things by popularity, which would quickly put SOTC (which I publish, in the interests of disclosure) at the top of the list. You can also find SOTC listed on the top sellers box on the left hand side of the front page.

Getting search software that sorts by term-relevance is actually a bit pricey, and again trying to work out a rubric for term-relevance in the software (which is vended to us by X-Cart, but which I've done some minor adjustments on now & again) is a non-trivial exercise. I'd love to have it, though, so I'll try to keep it in mind.

"Making this worse is IPR's habit of posting a full entry for each available format for a product. There's an entry for the print edition, an entry for the PDF edition, and an entry for an option that includes both. All for the same book. It makes much more sense to me to put up just one entry per product, and show a column with the available buying formats and corresponding prices."

I agree. If only our software could support that. Unfortunately, the out of the box X-Cart system, while it supports the idea of "product options", does not support the idea of each product option having a different status of electronically downloadable content, nor the idea of drawing from a common inventory. This has left us with our only best option being a separate listing for each product.

X-Cart was, however, the best affordable option we could buy, and is in fact a significant improvement over the software we had the store running on prior to March of last year.

"I never like to be a complainer, especially about a small-fry operation that's serving the gaming community, but IPR needs to do a better job of telling me why I should support them."

I hope this helped! And I do appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns. I just wish you'd have sent them direct to us -- but luckily, you tripped off a few of my Google Blogsearch daily alerts, so I managed to find you anyway. :)

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[info]macmoyer
2008-07-23 07:13 pm UTC (link)
"I just wish you'd have sent them direct to us"

Yeah, I should know better. I knew I was on Paul's LJ friend list, though, and thought it might catch his attention. :-)

I appreciate all the responses. I feel like I have a better sense now of what IPR is about. And I feel like you guys are really listening to the criticisms, and that goes a long way toward making me want to support the company as a consumer... and as an Internet loudmouth. I get that you can only do so much for prices, I get the impression that you're at least as eager as I am to see some improvements on the website, and I'm definitely impressed by your replies.

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